If you follow Russian football, you probably know who James Appell is, given there aren’t too many foreign journalists covering and interested in Russian football.
There have been interviews with him in the Russian press (he’s well known in Russia). Reading it, I always thought it would be great to talk to him myself, and, probably, have an interview. The years passed, and, in the end, I found the opportunity. I heard he was coming to visit the Volga – Spartak match in Nizhny Novgorod, and it took me some bravery to ask him for the interview. But he agreed. After the Red-Whites 1-0 win, we started our conversation.
James was very chill and friendly, so the nervousness I felt went away immediately.
- How did your relationship with Russia start?
– You know, when I finished school eleven years ago, I decided to take a gap year. I had lots of options where to go, but I decided to go to Russia and learn Russian. I spent four months in a language school and many doors were open for me, as a native English speaker.
- Why do you still have interest in the country?
– It’s very interesting from the professional point of view. Reading Russian press or watching Russian football from Russia, for example, is completely different from following it from far away.
Also, I was lucky. I’ve made a lot of good friends in Moscow. It’s always nice to return back here and see those people.
- OK, so you’re an eighteen-year old Englishman who arrives in Moscow. What surprises you the most?
– Everything. It’s all completely different. People say Moscow is not Russia (the common opinion of provincial Russians – author), but even Moscow is weird. You grow up in Leeds and in Moscow everything confuses you. Everything is a nightmare. There are rules that aren’t rules and there are secret things people don’t tell you about.
Signs in Moscow say “Don’t smoke here”, “Don’t smoke there”, and everybody is smoking. People drive cars like there are no rules.
It takes time to understand the unwritten rules. Like why you shouldn’t whistle inside the house or why you take your boots off inside.
- It’s a fact that there are a lot of Russian immigrants in England. What do English people think of them and what was your personal opinion of Russians before you first got there?
– I’ll answer the second question first. It was 2003 when I decided to go there. This was like a month after Abramovich took over Chelsea. This idea about rich Russians spending money on Jaguars and yachts was very new and it’s a very recent phenomenon.
To be honest, I hadn’t any opinion about Russians before 2003. You can’t meet Russians in Leeds. The best interaction with Russians before Abramovich arrived were James Bond films.
But, you know, in 2004 I was living in a flat in Chertanovo (Moscow district – author). I was about to take an elevator upstairs and the woman pulled the doors open so I could get in. And she said something like “Pyatnadtzatiy etazh” (Fifteenth floor) and I was like “Sorry, I don’t speak Russian.” Then she said “Ah! London! Berezovsky! Very bad!” I had no idea what this was about.
As for the first question: It’s an amazing PR thing that most Russian people in England are very rich. It’s not really true. But still, the only idea the average Englishman has about Russians is like – if he owns your football club, he’s probably a good guy; if he owns your rival club, he’s probably a bad guy.
But, if you think about how many immigrants are in England, there are enormous numbers of people from the Caribbean, from West Africa, from South Asia… Russians are a small percentage. But if you live in London – especially West London – you can see Russian groceries opening everywhere and strange shopping places with crazy clothing design. But there are also some fashionable places like Restaurant Mari Vanna. That’s popular with everyone, not only Russian immigrants. It’s really good.
- Let’s figuratively move back to Russia. What’s the craziest story that’s happened to you here?
– Now you’re asking… You know, there’s crazy stories all the time, because in Russia crazy things happen all the time and you forget how crazy they are, and the general level of craziness is high.
But if we’re talking about most memorable experience, that would be about three years ago. I went to Kazan to watch Rubin – CSKA. I arrived in Kazan, went to the stadium, bought the tickets, put the bags down in the hotel and decided to have a tour to the center of the city. It looks amazing. Kazan is really worth a visit. I went to the tourist information, and they gave me a guide to take me around the town. It was a nice Tatar guy who showed me the historic center, the Kremlin.
When he found out that I’m a sports journalist, he said that today there was a big basketball game at the Basket Hall where UNICS Kazan play. I agreed to go and UNICS won by a long way. What was interesting was that Triumph Lyubertsy, the opposing team, had two Americans. And I thought: “How did these two Americans come to Russia? What kind of choices in their careers did they make?” I mean, you’re a professional basketball player in America, in NBA and then you come to Lyubertsy. I know it’s a very, very tough neighbourhood. It was just really interesting how these guys got there.
The next day, after the Rubin game, I went to the airport to get on the flight to Moscow, and in the departure hall, there was the Triumph team. I saw those American guys and thought: “Well, who else am I gonna speak to?” We get acquainted, those guys were Paul Miller and Brion Rush. Brion Rush currently plays in Astana.
We got on the plane, I found a seat next to them, and in the conversation it turned out that those guys… You know, it’s the life of a foreign sportsman in Russia. Many people think they live a glamourous life with people cleaning up after them, to wipe their asses when they need it, but they were like: “Moscow is impossible, it’s hard to navigate around the city”, so they just were staying at home all the time.
Paul spent all his time skyping with family and playing PlayStation and watching TV, and then a car would come pick him up and people rang the bell, saying: “Go to practice” or “Go to the stadium” and then took him back home. They never went out for a drink or to any restaurants.
I said: “Paul, this is ridiculous! You have to visit Red Square, you have to visit some places!” and he was like: “No, I’ve been here for three months and I haven’t seen anything!” So I gave him my phone number and the day after we got back, we went out for a drink with other expats. It’s a typical Russian thing when circumstances bring you together with random people and you end up drinking with a professional basketball player.
That’s one story. I could give you twenty. But that one sticks in the mind. That was so bizzarre.
- We’ve been talking about life in general, now it’s time to talk about football. The question I’d like to ask you first: What’s your personal take on why Russian footballers can’t play successfully in Europe?
– You’re asking an Englishman and we have the same problem.
- That’s the next question.
– It’s a connected issue. We haven’t had a successful expat for years. Probably David Beckham…
- I can remember Alan Hutton spending about half a year playing on loan at Mallorca…
– Not successful.
- And David Bentley (at Rostov), even less successful.
– However, I’d get back to David Platt, who played several years in Italy and was very successful. Paul Gascoigne, who is, probably, one of the local heroes at Lazio. English don’t do expats very well, and Russians similarly. I mean… there was that generation of Radchenko, Onopko, Nikiforov, Karpin, Mostovoy…who immediately after the collapse of Soviet Union just needed to find a place to play. They were really talented guys. Then what did we have? Semak for a year in Paris; Smertin for three years doing nothing in England; Sychev, there was something not right about his deal to Marseille and his career has never recovered since then…
- Really?
– I don’t think he has done everything in Europe. If you compare his performance with what people were saying about him, it’s not even close to it.
Pavlyuchenko, Bilyaletdinov, Arshavin, Zhirkov. That’s it. We could begin talking about Arshavin, if you have any questions, but it’s a mess.
The only one we can talk about as a success is Marat Izmaylov. You know, the first football match I ever saw in Russia was in 2004 and it was a Champions League Round of Sixteen game between Lokomotiv and Monaco and Izmaylov scored one of the best goals I’ve ever seen live at the stadium. It was complete genius. Lokomotiv was so close to actually winning a second leg in Monaco and probably would have got to the final, because that was the year when Porto beat Monaco in the final. And that Lokomotiv team with Ignashevich as well, I think that was a great Lokomotiv team and Izmaylov was one of the most important players in it.
So it could be said that after the first generation of the early 90s, there has only been Izmaylov.
Now, why is that? I think it’s about motivation. Why go abroad if you can earn good money in Russia?
- But it’s not about the money. I mean, the league strength… The Russian league is developing, it’s becoming better…probably, but the English league is one of the best in the world, so it’s different than in Russia.
– You’re a Russian guy. You can earn good money, why go anywhere else? My point is… I don’t think every footballer cares about necessarily playing top football. They want to feel secure. The best way to feel secure is finances. And if in Russia they have to play very average football, but earn, like, fifty thousand dollars a week, they’ll deal with it.
And it’s the same in England. Why would you leave? Where’s the motivation? Russian guy says “I can earn 10% more in Spain or Italy. But what’s 10%, if I have to leave my home, learn a new language, get new teammates?” Why would you leave? It’s the problem of the system. But Russian market is distorted with Gazprom financing Zenit, Lukoil financing Spartak, various companies support CSKA (although it’s the team that doesn’t spend too much). Still, they pay enough.
Akinfeev is a great example. When he was 23, I’d say, top 5 clubs in Europe could’ve signed him. They could’ve paid him 25% more. But what’s 25%? Offer 100% more money and talk about a new city and motivation.
It’s really the same in England. Take Norwich City. Norwich is a great club. It’s a well-run club. But is Norwich the best you’re going to have in your career? For guys in Norwich like van Wolfswinkel, or Snodgrass, or Ruddy… they are great players. And they don’t want to go anywhere, they want to stay in the UK. They feel comfortable. You really have to have a strong motivation to move somewhere.
- I can see some accounts on Twitter covering Russian football teams, like “CSKA Moscow UK”, “Spartak Moscow UK”, “Rubin Kazan UK”. Do you know anyone in England that follows Russian football? Probably, not as much as you do, but interested ones.
– Two or three guys in the whole UK with whom I can have a good-level conversation about Russian football. The rest of the people, unfortunately, don’t have any interest.
You know, when I came to Moscow and said: “I’m watching a lot of Russian football,” people were saying “Why?” So, of course, there’s no wonder people don’t have any interest.
Language is a problem. We also don’t have Russian football on TV, so it’s hard to get it. And there are enough… Truthfully, if you compare it to England, Spain, Italy, Germany… The Russian league has about five leagues to compete with. If you’re an average Russian football fan and you want to find something interesting to watch, there has to be nothing in England, France, or Italy, and still you may say ” I want to watch Turkish league”, “I want to watch Greek league” or something. It’s very, very crowded in football.
So there’s two or three people who know the difference between Vladimir and Pyotr Bystrov. And there’s always going to be that number.
- By the way, there’s an another media man in England who watches Russian football. It’s, obviously, John Bradley.
– He’s a commentator.
– The question is: Are you in touch with him often?
– Well, the reason I know John Bradley is when I was young, John Bradley used to work on the radio station and did live commentary for Leeds United. And we were 15-16 years old and Leeds were in the Champions League playing Real Madrid and Barcelona. John Bradley was commentating. So he’s a cult figure for Leeds United, listening him to commentating Leeds in the Champions League…
And it’s really unusual that 10 years later, I then find John talking about Russian football, and we share this strange interest. But I don’t talk to him that regularly. He works in Liverpool commentating for LFC TV, so… you know… the guys besides John are Tim White, who is also from Leeds, he’s an ex-journalist, and there’s a guy called Dan Darby. He’s a very educated guy.
I should say there’s a couple of young guys, students. Eliot Rothwell, Domm Norris…
– They’re on Twitter.
– Elliot, particularly, I think, is a smart guy, he’s got a real future in journalism, if he wants to cover Russian football. I love the way that he writes.
But that’s it. There’s five guys. We can share jokes on Twitter, but we’re not a community because it’s an old thing to be a community.
- What is the person in Russian football that you’d like to share a beer with?
– Well, that’s a great question. There’s probably fifty people. Not at the same time, though.
But one guy, I think, I would want to just sit down and have like ten beers and the bottle of vodka…
- Shirokov.
– No, it’s Alexey Sapogov. I think now as he finished his career, so it’s probably too late, but Sapogov, you know, it’s a typical Russian muzhik (equivalent of a “tough guy” in English).
And, Sapogov, yeah, one hundred percent. Any guy that’s turning out at an international football match and scoring a goal by sliding down on the ball and scoring with his head is a genius.
But he’s a complex character. I’ve got a lot of respect for people recommending themselves as football players, but I could learn nothing by having a beer with them. But I can learn a lot from Roman Shirokov, for sure. I think Valery Karpin is a really interesting character. If I was sitting down with Leonid Slutsky, I’d buy him the beers. I’d be very happy to buy him as much as he want to drink. He seems like such a nice guy.
- Well, I have to admit that although he’s a coach of my rival team and they won the championship last year, he’s intelligent, and that’s good.
– Yeah, I certainly feel I’d get a connection with him.
There are all sorts of characters around Russian football. Take Artyom Dzyuba. He’s probably not a very interesting person, but wouldn’t you like to get inside the head of Artyom Dzyuba? Interesting.
There’s some people that watch football because of the tactics, there’s people who want to see football’s beauty, lovely goals. Frankly, I’m not one of those people. I’m watching Russian football, where it’s not always clear what’s happening on the pitch, and when it comes to winter time, it’s hard, it’s rugby. I watch football because of the personalities and Russian football is full of personalities.
- If an average Englishman comes to you and says: “I’m going to visit Russia and I want to watch football,” which three matches would you recommend him? Like Amkar – Tom in late November or something more obvious?
- I think Amkar – Tom in late November would be a very good reason to never watch Russian football. If John Smith comes to me and says: “I want a real Russian Premier League experience,” there will be, unquestionably, Spartak-CSKA, because of the rivalry element, the fan culture in it’s most extreme form. The derby is a good thing. Russians underestimate how English people have lost their fan culture…
- Atmosphere.
– Exactly. It’s a good thing that Russia is going to clean up football, stop violence, stop people smoking, make new stadiums. But, please, keep the atmosphere.
Maybe it’s a good thing if you go watch an outsiders’ game in Samara, of course. Krylia are a proper football team with a proper history. Could be against Rubin, or Ural.
And, probably, go watch Torpedo Moscow. Go watch a FNL game. People could be surprised by what fan culture in Russia looks like on the lower levels.
– How would you rate the chances of Russian teams against English teams in Europe this season? CSKA are playing Manchester City, Rubin faces Wigan, Kuban against Swansea… What are your predictions?
– That’s a really difficult question and the reason why it’s difficult is that it’s hard for me to understand the relative strengths of each team. Take Kuban as an example. Kuban really, really easily beat Motherwell. Then they got PSV, right?
- Feyenoord.
– And they easily beat them again. Kuban had to change the coach and rebuild the team. They’re organized. Some interesting things are happening in Kuban. But what I want to say – no one knows how they’re going to look against Swansea. But I think Swansea will win the home game and Kuban will win the home match as well.
CSKA – Manchester City. This all depends to me on whether Slutsky wants to try for European success or to win titles in Russia again. But if I was Slutsky – and I’m obviously not Slutsky – I’d consider national success more important. You can get money from playing in Champions League, in places like Manchester, seeing yourself on TV, show your players. And get out of it just in time, in January-February-March, to win the championship a second year in a row. If CSKA sets up, and I think CSKA will set up, there could be a draw at Khimki, and loss in Manchester. That’d be OK.
- What about Rubin, who are going to play in a rather confusing atmosphere at Wigan?
– I actually have a lot of respect for Wigan.
- Me too, but, for me, it’s a fact that the atmosphere in Wigan is not very inspiring.
– They have European football there and should have no problem in selling the tickets.
- Everton’s stadium was about half full when they played in Europa League.
– Everton is Everton and Wigan is Wigan.
- But the same thing happened to Stoke in 2011.
– Not sure. By the way, Rubin always play in front of 5-10 thousand people. We will see where the atmosphere will be better.
Rubin is a class team. They know how to win every football match. I can see Rubin easily qualifying from that group, there will be no problems against Wigan.
- Wigan still have a strong team.
– What’s a strong team if you play Natcho and Rondon? Natcho for me is…
- I know, you’ve been comparing him to Modric.
– I think the guy is the most underrated midfielder in Europe’s top leagues. Possibly, the only thing that stops him is culture. He’s from Israel, but he’s not Jewish. He has a lot of of cultural connections to Kazan keeping him there.
But on technique – he’s absolutely genius.
And… there’s an another team…
– Anzhi.
– Anzhi, right. Best not to even talk about Anzhi. Nobody knows what are they going to look like next week. Tagirbekov playing every single position, who knows. Against Tottenham. I kind of agree what Roberto Carlos said about Anzhi – that watching them in Europe would be a complete circus.
- In my opinion, they will still get out of group. Tromso and Sheriff are weak, to be honest.
– That’s a very weak group, but Anzhi is very weak too.
- As the end of the interview, what would you say to foreigners that have a little interest in Russian football and want to start watching it?
-I’d say that… Football is football. You can always find something interesting. There’s no way I’d say to that going to the games in Russia is necessarily…that it’s the best league in the world. But you’re coming here, you watch games, you understand the football culture and it says a lot about Russia as a country.
Anywhere in the world, there’s cultural things, differences, you see and you say: “Ah, I understood something about this place.”
Wherever you are, you’re going to the stadium, you’re taking a seat, you’re enjoying the 90 minutes of football, and it’s entertainment, theater, wherever you are.
That’s it. I guess that’s what I was saying. It’s no matter whether it’s cold, it’s hot, the players are good, the players are bad. It’s always interesting to see things from a different point of view.